April Pride, host: Hey, it’s April Pride, your host here on the High Guide podcast. I’d like to take a moment to remind you that we do discuss cannabis and psychedelics, and this podcast is intended for audiences 21 and over. Also, I am not a medical expert. We do discuss interventions and protocols and you should consult your medical professional before moving forward with anything that we may discuss here on the show. Before we begin, I’d like to thank our show sponsor of like Minds. Check out of like Minds Co That’s of like minds mind. Esco To learn more about Seattle’s trusted source for psilocybin. Hi everyone. Welcome to the Hi Guide podcast. Today we conclude our three part series with Jennifer Chesak, author of The Psilocybin Handbook for Women with a provocative conversation on the intricacies of sexual health and consent while in an altered state of consciousness. Let’s conclude our exploration of women in psilocybin. That is, of course, unless you live in Seattle and can join Jennifer and me on November 15th for our live Q&A. Check out the show notes for more information.
Jennifer Chesak, author: I really don’t like talking about this very much, but it’s so important. And that is that we go into these experiences or the idea that we’re going to take psychedelics and positive changes on the other side. And there is just like there, the information around psilocybin in terms of dosing and which variety to choose and how do I integrate is is very secretive. There is another secret in the community, the psychedelic community, and that is that sexual abuse is rampant. And I don’t think that we should be surprised that something that involves drugs and secrecy and people in positions of power, you know, that it’s just not ripe for abuse. And there was you and I spoke about a specific podcast series that New York magazine did, and you referenced this in your book about it’s called Power Trip. And it is about this, I guess, often left out secret in the psychedelic community. And as women in particular are looking for facilitators and looking for psilocybin assisted therapy. A couple of things. One, the facilitators who I trust the most, there’s always two of them. There’s a woman and there’s a man, and they work together to guide their clients or their patients, you know, And it could go back to the woo woo reason. You’ve got a representation of the masculine and the feminine, which is critical, right? I also just think for harm reduction and witness and safety, why not have more than one person there? Is there anything else that I mean, obviously, you have I think it’s in a chapter dedicated to this. So there’s a lot that we can go into about this. But fries is something that comes to mind that would be really important to discuss for sure.
Jennifer Chesak, author: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about that. I mean, it’s a very difficult topic, obviously, and I’m devastated that this is happening, but we have to be talking about it because I do want to make people aware. And yes, that podcast, I highly recommend it. It’s cover story, Power Trip by New York magazine. Lily Ross is one of the hosts producers. Et Cetera. She just goes through it in a very good explanation of what is happening. But essentially, in a nutshell, there are guides, therapists, et cetera, who are sexually assaulting their clients. And one of the things that people need to be, I think need to be really aware of is how much psilocybin makes you more vulnerable and it opens your mind to things. And so if someone is taking advantage of that, yeah, they could convince you to engage in some type of sexual contact with them. And that is what is happening now. Obviously it doesn’t happen to everyone, but it is something that is out there. And so we do need to be vetting our guides, therapists. Et cetera. Again, consent is not the onus on the person that ends up being assaulted. That’s not the that’s not what I’m trying to say. I just want to raise awareness about that this is happening. So I think a really a couple of really good practices.
Jennifer Chesak, author: If you’re looking for a guide or a therapist or something, is to see if you can meet with them ahead of time and they should have a conversation about consent with you. They should also just be asking everything about you, including your history of trauma, your medications, all of that. If they aren’t checking in on that, that that would signal to me that they don’t really care about you. But yes, you brought up this acronym, Fries. Fries. And so this is something that the social worker, Natalie Vilanova, that I mentioned earlier, she explained to me she studies stuff regarding psilocybin, but this Fries acronym is actually unrelated to that. But we can translate that to our psilocybin sessions. So she works with teens and she tries to explain consent to them using this acronym. And it’s brilliant. It’s so the F stands for freely given the R is reversible and I’ll go through these individually informed is the I and then E is enthusiastic and the S is specific. So consent needs to be freely given. This means that you’re not under the influence and you’re not being coerced or manipulated into giving it. But in the context of a psilocybin session, you might have a pre session conversation just as I described, where perhaps your practitioner might say something like, Are you okay with touch or me holding your hand if something difficult comes up and if you as the person who was going to go into this session, you say no to that, they shouldn’t be pushing that on you.
Jennifer Chesak, author: But that does happen. Sometimes the reversible component means that you always have the right to change your mind about anything that you have consented to so far, and that’s no matter where you are in the session. So but reversal only works in one way. So a yes can always become a no. So if you’ve consented before your session to yes, you can hold my hand. You can revoke that consent in a psilocybin session. But what I mean that it’s not reversed is that if you’ve said no precession. Two hand holding your practitioner should not then sit in the middle of the session when you’re on psilocybin suddenly say, Hey, are you okay with me holding your hand? You’ve already said no to that, so you can’t suddenly say yes when you’re under the influence. So that’s the point there. Then informed means that you know exactly what you’re getting into when you’ve said yes to something. So a guide or therapist should be clear with you beforehand about what to expect.
Jennifer Chesak, author: So including ideas about touch or anything like that and touch does not even have to happen. You know, that’s just something that you can talk about in advance. So enthusiastic in, you know, obviously in the context of a sexual experience unrelated to psychedelics means that, you know, you’re very person is into what’s happening and continuing to agree to it. It’s not a very it’s not just like a maybe kind of thing. So, you know, in a psilocybin experience, if somebody is not enthusiastic about touch or something like that, in that pre session conversation, that’s a clear no on their part. And the therapist needs to be acknowledging that. And then the last part is specific. So in terms of sex, again, unrelated to psilocybin, that’s you know, we’re moving forward, we’re advancing in this sexual experience that we’re having. And going a little deeper, we need to be getting consent from people along the way. And so that same thing applies in a psilocybin session where sex should not be a part of that at all when you’re with a therapist or a guide or whatever. But, you know, they need to be checking in with you about everything along the way. That’s, you know, that’s the specific component. So I think Fries is a great acronym for all of that.
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April Pride, host: In fact, with our caramels, I advise people to take a third. Set your timer for 45 minutes when it goes off, determine if you’re going to take more. A lot of people don’t get past maybe a second, third or half of an overall caramel in one fell swoop. Keep that in mind. They’re so potent, you don’t need to eat a whole one to get a great trip, which means they’re perfect for sharing. So whether you’re a seasoned psychonaut or just dipping your toes into the world of psychedelics, these chocolate covered psilocybin caramels are a must try. Open yourself up to new possibilities, connect with the medicine in a new way, and savor the flavors that accompany your journey. Ready to take a bite? Visit the Ublic Minds website where you can download our guides to products such as these edibles, which are also gifted with a purchase of our download. If you happen to live in Seattle, of course. Also, please sign up for our newsletter and follow us on social media to learn all the ways we’re of like minds.
Jennifer Chesak, author: Is there a reason why women should work with men? I mean, I see that as a woman raising two sons. And, you know, I love men, but to be in an altered state and to it just feels like you’re super vulnerable. I don’t know you are.
Jennifer Chesak, author: But, you know, it can happen between a woman and a woman. This consent violation as well. So what happened for me with my guide whom I felt very comfortable with. He’s a guy and he brought his mom as my trip sitter. So she was there and I never felt so safe in my life. I’m like, I’ve got my mom here. Yeah, looking after me. And also, I already had felt very comfortable with him, but I was very adamant about having a female president and that was granted to me. So I think that that can be beneficial in terms of having someone that you really trust who is with you.
Jennifer Chesak, author: Oh, yes. That actually is another thing that’s come up. It’s the people. Like we can talk about setting and being in a comfortable place and making sure you have water and great sound options and all a place that’s shady if you’re outside. Critical, critical, critical. But the most critical thing is, you know, are the people that you choose to be with when you’re in that altered state. So that also includes the coach or facilitator that you may be working with. Yeah.
Jennifer Chesak, author: And the people if you’re doing a retreat with a bunch of people, those other clients are there as well and they can be problematic with consent towards you as well. Just depends on what’s going on. So it’s just something to be aware of.
Jennifer Chesak, author: Yes, exactly.
April Pride, host: This episode concludes our three part mini series with author Jennifer Chesak. I hope it was informative and that you learned something new. And a quick reminder, if you liked this series and you live in Seattle, then you’ll want to join Jennifer and me on November 15th for a live Q&A sponsored by of Like Minds. If you can’t join us, we’ve linked to her book, The Psilocybin Handbook for Women in the Show notes as well. Thank you, as always, for listening to the High guide, and we’ll see you next time.
